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A very exciting thread about laptop music
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:

I think what egw is saying is that at least with a G2, or most other hardware devices, you at least *have* the controls for adjusting right there in front of you. With a laptop, that is not always the case. And in the case of a laptop, the controls available don't lend themselves to be used in a musical way.


This is a good point; the G2 keyboard has a excelent interface, even if the keyboard version would be very hard to travel with. To get a comparable interface on the laptop you need to add a external midi or osc controller.

If only a powerfull, versatile synthesiser with some decend soundquality could be added to this then you´d have something realy nice indeed. Perhaps something along the lines of Pure Data running on a desktop pc would do? Uing a desktop would avoid laptops on stage; a sure fire way to make sure a performance is boring, I propose the use of Pure Data, the differences betweent that and Max/Msp are rather accedemical but Pure Data isn´t as inclined towards boring music as Max/msp is, you see.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I propose the use of Pure Data, the differences betweent that and Max/Msp are rather accedemical but Pure Data isn?t as inclined towards boring music as Max/msp is, you see.

what are you talking about Question why Max/MSP should be more "inclined towards boring music" Question Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sarcasm / witticism alert!

-diskonext

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
egw wrote:
But on the other hand, I'm disappointed if I travel a long way or spend precious dollars to see a show that seemed like it would be really interesting, but ended up being yet another laptop/ableton live/audio samples set with no real creative innovation. Funny that it's completely different from anything you could hear 10 years ago, but it's already getting old. If the performers would only try to get more of themselves into the music (and less of the tool), I think it would hold up.


I understand you play live using a G2, could you please go into some of the "real creative innovation" that is involved in your setup that would be unavailable to me with my laptop/ Live setup?

You see, except for Wan in his Zappa cover band and some experiments at the MOD(2004) festifal I´ve never seen anyone use the G2 in live performance and I myself was unable to find anything in the G2 to hold my attention so I´m unaware of these marvelous things it can do unavailable to me.

Please explain.


I never said that you can't do creative innovation with ableton etc. Only that I am disappointed that I often don't see it happening. Having read your posts here, I am sure that you are an exception to this. I know some other musicians that are as well. Also I'm sure there are people making boring music with the G2. However most people I know who use a G2, have chosen it for it's flexibility, not ease of use, not because it allows them to emulate some existing style of music, but because it is so open ended that it encourages you to find your own voice. The fact that the control surface is well integrated and customizable makes it relatively easy to create controllable and expressive patches.
But really I'm not trying to promote one particular tool over another. I just want to see musicians choose and use their tools in a way that infuses more of their unique style into the music, in an expressive way that interacts with other musicians in the group, or with the audience. The music I like is about self expression, how much of your self do you communicate if you make music that imitates someone else, or tries to adhere to some prevalent accepted style?
Every musician should have their own idea of what tools best help them to accomplish their musical goals. It might take some time, experience, and money to sort through the choices. I wouldn't try to tell someone what tool is best for them, unless I really understood what they were trying to do. Even then I can only talk about the domain I'm familiar with, which doesn't include software.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
Kassen wrote:
I propose the use of Pure Data, the differences betweent that and Max/Msp are rather accedemical but Pure Data isn?t as inclined towards boring music as Max/msp is, you see.

what are you talking about Question why Max/MSP should be more "inclined towards boring music" Question Rolling Eyes


It´s not, I actually would like to own it because unlike PD it support rewire and so I could rewire it into Live. I was making a little parody on some of the stuff people write about laptops, trying to demonstrate how shortsighted and frankly rediculous some of their ideas are.

Anyway, by now I´m getting realy interested about the G2. The original quetion was about *software* yet aparently for some people sfotware and laptops are so increadibly loathsome that their mere mentioning is reason to start complaining about the creative use of laptops before Chuck has even gotten his programs installed.

Instead the G2 is proposed. I´m still wailting for these people to explain what the G2 can do that my laptop (to which, by the way, a whole range of controlers is connected) can´t. Alternately; post one recording of a G2 patch that´s not made by Rob that sounds good. Sorry, no external effects or eq can be used, everything must be pure G2. Also the demo can´t be used for obvious reasons.

Well, that should be easy! either make it do one (1) new and exciting thing or make it sound good! Should be easy, right? any takers?

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:

However most people I know who use a G2, have chosen it for it's flexibility, not ease of use, not because it allows them to emulate some existing style of music, but because it is so open ended that it encourages you to find your own voice.


Cool, those people can enter my challenge, please invite them over. If it´s realy so flexible that you can start flaming laptop users at the mere question of what software is suitable for live performance because you have a G2 and are thus inherently a prime example of inovative-ness this should be easy. Please convince me.

remember; one recording that sound good of a patch not made by Rob or one principle not available on my laptop; your choice.

Also; you didn´t answer my question; what do you do live that is so innovative?

I freely admit that my own live set isn´t inovative at all. Everything that is going on has been well documented since the 60´s with the exception of the granular stuff which is still older then I am. The one exception to this is the controll scheme which I cooked up myself.

None of it would be close to possible on the G2 for various reasons.

I would like to be as innovative as you aparently are, however I´m not original enough to go beyond minor improvements on well documented techniques. Trying my best to be expressive will have to do for me.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

Anyway, by now I´m getting realy interested about the G2. The original quetion was about *software* yet aparently for some people sfotware and laptops are so increadibly loathsome that their mere mentioning is reason to start complaining about the creative use of laptops before Chuck has even gotten his programs installed.

Instead the G2 is proposed. I´m still wailting for these people to explain what the G2 can do that my laptop (to which, by the way, a whole range of controlers is connected) can´t. Alternately; post one recording of a G2 patch that´s not made by Rob that sounds good. Sorry, no external effects or eq can be used, everything must be pure G2. Also the demo can´t be used for obvious reasons.

Well, that should be easy! either make it do one (1) new and exciting thing or make it sound good! Should be easy, right? any takers?


Looking back over this thread, you were the one to bring up the G2.
So your complaint is misplaced.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:

Looking back over this thread, you were the one to bring up the G2.
So your complaint is misplaced.


According to the search function of my Firefox that would be Windchill, actually.

I -perhaps mistakenly- asumed that you -being a G2 user- believed your own instrument to be preferable over the laptops you find so disapointing.

Doesn´t feel so good to see your instrument of choice flamed, now, does it?

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:
I have seen the exact phenomenon that windchill talks about many times.
I don't try to tell people how they should make music. I agree with elektro and don't see anything wrong with people (young or otherwise) making music, even if they lack talent or the resourcefulness to plumb the full depth of their equipment. In fact I would encourage everyone to make music, the process itself is positive for them and the planet in general, a much better way to spend time than many things that people do

....... Funny that it's completely different from anything you could hear 10 years ago, but it's already getting old. If the performers would only try to get more of themselves into the music (and less of the tool), I think it would hold up.


Just an observation..

The reason why many get into music is simply that they want to make the same noises as.. uh..when I was young.. bands like Pink Floyd, Jimi Hendrix Experience, The Kinks.. you name them.. This did of course also mean that the those masters were copied.. often badly. many bands ended up being tribute bands. This is pretty unproblematic really. That is the way it is. When you get older you get into other types of music.
These days kids ( and others ) are trying to learn to sound like ( you make that list ) .. and this leads to many of the DJ/synthesists/laptop artists doing the "tribute band" thingie. Again, this is not bad at all. It is a great way to learn your chops. Some of the resulting music will of course be dull/stupid/bad.. whatever. And some might be into certain genres that not many really care for. At times I often must admit that I don?t understand the music at all, but others are having fun.. so.. what do I know?
It is true that some of the socalled laptop music is starting to sound old. I think a reason for this migt be that some of the genres and ideas ( even though they were initially valid and exciting ) didn?t really have a way to evolve further. Some of the microsound music I have heard.. and the glitchy stuff.. is a kind of music built on a framework that doesn?t really allow the genre to evolve. In order to evolve the musicians must instead leave the genre and construct new frameworks and ideas. Many do. However, I wouldn?t really say that a genre that is stuck in a dead end cannot evolve. In this case I think it has happened at least 3-4 times. What we then are ending up with is true genre in the same sense traditional reggae is a genre.. or polka or norwegian folk music. This is not bad at all, but it doesn?t really appeal to everyone out there. By 2012 I guess we will have a country music/glitchy thing going on.. performed with battered Clavia synths and old laptops. Linedancing the glitchy way? Very Happy

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have tested a Live demo right now, and I also have an older version that came with my FW410. This doesn?t seem that bad at all. There are a lot of cute things you can do with it. It still doesn?t appeal to me, in the sense that I cannot really figure out what I would want to use it for, but it looks damned good anyway. I know that the app intuitivey looks like a "4 to the floor machine" but then again.. not.. It is completely possible to make this little thing misbehave in unexpected ways.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i just switched from Cubase SX to Live 4, recently.
i'm not making groove-oriented music at all, either. i primarily warmed to Live due to it's inter-track routing scheme, overall stability under high processor load, and it's interface. being able to have vst windows, for example, that are not bound to the main interface is great, too.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, a lot of that it quite valid, Elektro, certainly there is a certain sound typical for "laptop musicians" over the past three or so years.

Hopefully that will go out of fashion, hopefully "laptop music" will once sound as silly as "guitar music" or "synthesiser music". For the moment, however, we are talking about "live" (which i took to mean interactive in real time) music which Chuck want to make. We know he want to make non-dance music and we know he wants to do that in realtime.

Seraph and me happen to have experience with making such music with Ableton Live whci is what was asked for. Some people also have some knowledge of Max/Msp which was also asked for.

Nobody was asking wether Chuck would have the moral fiber to stand up against the diabolical influences of these programs, nobody even knows wether the poor man even owns a laptop or wether he might want to install these programs on a desktop. "Live" might rever to a realtime way of composing, perhaps not to a audience.

I think this situation is akin to having somebody ask; "what´s a good comb to use on curly hair?" and get a lot of replies that come down to "I hate black people, I saw some black people over the past months and they were all acting suspicious" then you get some posts along the lines of "Some niggers are nice, i´m sure, but if I have to drive a long way to meet somebody and it turns out to be just another black guy then I´m disapointed".

A lot of the replies have simply been discriminatory and to make matters worse; they are probably not even related at all to what Chuck wants to do; aparently this hatred of everything that´s a portable computer runs so deeply that some people simply need to get it out of their system regardless of the topic.

Chuck, you´ll have to deal with this if you are going the software route. One of the solutions I found is to lie; make your music using your self-programed stuff, then claim you recorded modified acoustical instruments and treated those with analog gear, that gets them off your back. It doesn´t matter whether it sounds like that´s at all possible; the sort of person who gives this kind of reaction evidently cares more about the source then about the sound; they won´t be able to tell. Apart from reaction like this it´s a very rewarding route.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

I -perhaps mistakenly- asumed that you -being a G2 user- believed your own instrument to be preferable over the laptops you find so disapointing.

Doesn´t feel so good to see your instrument of choice flamed, now, does it?


I use what works for me, and I would tell anyone to do the same, whatever it may be. I'm really not interested in a "my instrument is better than yours" debate. It doesn't bother me at all if someone doesn't like the instruments I use. I expect everyone to have different tastes. Wouldn't life be boring otherwise?

When I go to a performance, there are certain things I like to see, and certain things I don't like to see (hear). I have expressed that, but I'm speaking only for myself, no one else. I make no comment about your music, because I have never heard it. If I did I would try to say something positive. Or if I couldn't I would remain silent, or maybe just say it's not for me.

I have made no claims about my music, it's innovativeness, sound quality, or anything else. And I have no intention of ever defending my music. Certainly I wouldn't expect to be asked to do that here. I make music because I enjoy making music, and if the people I'm with enjoy it too, then that's enough for me.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:

I use what works for me, and I would tell anyone to do the same, whatever it may be. I'm really not interested in a "my instrument is better than yours" debate. It doesn't bother me at all if someone doesn't like the instruments I use. I expect everyone to have different tastes. Wouldn't life be boring otherwise?


In that case it would be wise to change your password because then it looks like sombody has been abusing you account. This person wrote things like:

Quote:
But on the other hand, I'm disappointed if I travel a long way or spend precious dollars to see a show that seemed like it would be really interesting, but ended up being yet another laptop/ableton live/audio samples set with no real creative innovation.


I sugest you contact Howard about this abuse, the I.P. numbers might be logged.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cebec wrote:
i primarily warmed to Live due to it's inter-track routing scheme, overall stability under high processor load, and it's interface. being able to have vst windows, for example, that are not bound to the main interface is great, too.


Great points! I think these are some of the features that makes Ableton Live really interesting.

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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wether you guys realise it or not, you are missing something...

you are not hearing the heart and soul..the message of this music..feeling the emotion of a live laptop performance

other's can..why can't you

and there are probably 2 reasons..

1. you are not really listening

2. you do not understand/live in the context in which the music was created..the 'era'..you might be stuck in some other time...

this is just typical generation gap..

so you are writing it off a large chunk of new electronic music..

that's too bad and your loss...

but what is worse is the vibe and attitude of disrespect toward the ideas

it makes the genearation gap an isolating experience for everyone, rather than a resource for everyone [all ages] to learn from

-----
perhaps if the next laptop guy calls his CD 'Sonata for 6 laptops and very hard sums - opus 2.1' and has a 'call for papers', we can have a symposium on the whole shebang..that will be very 'adult'

---

what if we invited 'kids' to give their assessment of the music of the 'adults' here...that would be enlightening...

perhaps they would not be humbled and 'shown the light' by 'adult 'music that is nothing more than mere copies of the masters of OLD electronic music..and has been so for many decades


perhaps it would be un-nerving and eye-opening for the 'adults' to realise that the 'kid's music highlights that 30-100 year old techniques and styles [live/studio] have been reduced to mere sub-sets of current techniques...'vintage' ideas available at the touch of a button...

please keep in mind, in any genre..at any age..in any era..there are imitators and innovators..

a good question to ask oneself is

'which am i ?'

just make good music...don;t build walls around genre's , styles, eras,

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I think "things?s were better in the old days" won?t compute at all. What about reading those posts again. I think it is completely OK that Greg finds some of the laptop events boring. That is in fact a good thing. We shouldn?t all be into the latest rage. We need different directions in music. As for real music, I cannot quite see why laptop music is less real than say Cage and his silence or whatever.
60s acts like Animals.. and even Alexis Korner.. were mainly tribute projects at first. For some reason they didn?t quite manage to copy their heroes that well, and suddenly we had the british R an dB / soul music thingie instead. The laptop movement can hardly be that different.
As for the Sonata for 6 latops and the call for papers, that has already been done.. several times over. Be aware that some of these artyfarty takes on laptop music are way into academic music country and the actual music is more about the ideas and the initial paper than true innovation. Your average neighboorhood laptop battle will probably be far more exciting.
As for masters of electronic music, it is interesting that people are still interested in what happened at the BBC radiophonic workshop. People are using CSOUND today to emulate what was done with spoons and tape recorders. Even if the tools are completely outdated, the ideas are still valid.
As for the message of laptop music? What is that? You have at least 5-6 clearly different ideologies out there, even though rags like Wired magazine are trying to make this seems as one huge consistent movement.
Is laptop music bad? This thread does not say that at all.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro 80...sorry i edited my post for brevity while you replied to the previous version

but anyway.i am not sure if i do understand where you personally stand

..but i am really addressing the general vibe that i sense ..a negativity toward dj's, glitch, laptop...

i think the tenor of the posts [and others in other threads] do give off that vibe...


and i hate to see these attitutdes create divisions and put everyone into a camp of their own musical truths..

and for some great ideas to be set aside without full understanding...

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aha.. I was like suddenly wondering what was happening here. Very Happy

The way I see it, the laptop movement, the glitches and the DJs are in no need to defend themselves. We should also not expect top notch performance all of the time. Anyone remember the brit prog rock era? The current scandinavian black metal movement? The latop music movement is clearly less embarassing. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For the record, I think that

all glitch music=cool = untrue
all opera= cool = untrue


all glitch music=bad = untrue
all opera= bad = untrue

etc.

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

we agree...opera, glitch..just as you said

but there is less respectful terms and language being used when it comes to describing 'glitch' etc..and disbaraging and mis-informed remarks about live laptop music...in this thread anyway

and there is also legitimate criticisms of laptop music as well..it is far from perfect..and these criticisms should be well-taken by laptoppers

but the tone is still too negative in my view..kind of dismissive

--

btw..you asked about the 'message' of laptop music...

the message is in the music...

[if it is good, that is..and let's not argue about what 'good' means ok hehehe]

--personal note..i am not a 'laptop' performer..but have performed many times with various live set ups, including using audio loops all the way to completely live synths [no sequences]..i mention this to demostrate i am not single-minded about this stuff

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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this is a very interesting thread Very Happy flame-wars aside you can not give responsability to a tool if music is boring or interesting. it's the human operator that matters. it's also true that a tool makes something easier to accomplish instead of something else but that is true for any tool (musical or not). Personally I am starting a Laptop Crusade Shocked against infidels Exclamation Wink
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Give them hell! Cool
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egw
Stream Operator


Joined: Feb 01, 2003
Posts: 1569
Location: Asheville NC
Audio files: 18
G2 patch files: 8

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess I haven't made my views very clear.
I tried to add the appropriate qualifiers, but people seem to prefer to take one or two lines out of context and attach the most inflammatory interpretation.
I actually like laptop music and I think laptops are great tools for making music. I don't have strong opinions about one software vs another because I don't use them. My only complaints are:
1. I wish most of the laptop music I see was more individualized, and not so predictable or formulaic. Many recordings/performances I hear are easily recognizable as using ableton live, but not so easy to distinguish one artist from another. I wish to encourage artists to put more of themselves into the music, and not just do what is easiest or sounds like the "expected" style.
2. In a performance I like to see what the artist is doing, I like to see the music being created. I feel let down if the music has been created beforehand and is just being triggered. Even then, however, it can still be very good and enjoyable music, like listening to a good CD. But why go to a performance to do that? Adding some physical controllers can improve things a lot.
3. In a group improv situation, I would rather not play with people who use laptops and nothing else. They lack the expressive controls to interact well with the other musicians. Sure, this is not true for all types of music. This is just my preference for the kind of music I play. At least a mixer with a volume knob goes a long way towards improving this. This is a minor point, because a good musician with just a laptop is still much better than one with very expressive instruments but who doesn't listen.

If I have offended anyone with my opinions, I apologize.
I don't want to disparage anyone's preferred instrument or style of music.
I have found much enjoyment in pursuing music as a form of self-expression, and I encourage others to do the same.
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Kassen
Janitor
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Joined: Jul 06, 2004
Posts: 7678
Location: The Hague, NL
G2 patch files: 3

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2005 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
What about reading those posts again. I think it is completely OK that Greg finds some of the laptop events boring.


I read them and yes, you are right but I think you can wonder about how apropriate it is to start writing about that in this thread. Greg didn´t start that, Windchill did, but I thought it was covered back then. I think it´s realy strange how people feel the need to start spouting their disrespect over other people´s instruments and music in threads from people that are thinking about aquirering such a instrument.

Suppose somebody would open a thread about his doubts wether he should buy a G2 or a Lead 3 and I would jump in and start complaining about those can only be used for trance, lack soul, anti-aissing, a quality keyboard and that no serious musician would go near either synthesiser, wouldn´t that be considdered rude and unapropriate? There the question wouldn´t be wether Clavia synths are desireable or apropriate; that would already be established by the poster, just like here the question isn´t wether software can be used for things beside stereotypes, that was already established in Chucks first post where he was speciffically asking about experience making beatless music with Live.

Ineed Greg and Windchill are entitled to their opinion, but we should not equate respecting opinions with encouraging people to posts those just anywhere regardless of relevance. No doubt some other thread could be made where these people can share their prejudices and where those don´t harm the comunication channels of those trying to deal with technology and musical expression on a more mature level.

If you don´t believe me, I would be willing to -just out of experiment- post my opinion about the G2 in every thread that mentions the G2 for a week. Would that be ok too?

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