Questions about 4011 Ring Mod

acidblue · Joined: Jun 26, 2009 Posts: 226 Location: The Darkside

Does the 4011 chip in the ring mod schem need to be of the unbuffered type?
I tried it with a buffered chip, (only one I have atm), but didn't notice much of difference in sound, although it was a bit louder.

I inputed two 4069 VCO's and only noticed a slight difference in sound, nothing like the ring I should be getting.

Also my understanding of ring mods is you need to use 2 different inputs, like 2 VCO"S or other OSC's, you can't use the
same VCO into both inputs, is this correct?

Schem I'm using:

ringmod.png

Description:

Filesize:

24.56 KB

Viewed:

19296 Time(s)

ezekiel · Joined: Oct 17, 2009 Posts: 30 Location: Columbus Ohio

The schematic you show with the four 4011 gates is really XOR. I am not sure what effect the diodes on inputs would have.

For pseudo-ringmod, I like to use the 4030 or 4070 or 4077 chips (XOR and XNOR)--that only requires one gate. Then, you can combine more XOR gates together in whatever configurations you can think of.

Another approach is four diodes in a bridge-rectifier square.

Replace the 4011 with a 4093 (Schmitt-input NAND gates) for yet another variation.

If you are feeding in the 4069 triangle oscillator, it might not come out according to the textbook XOR binary/boolean function. However, in Lunetta land, anything goes--just report here any interesting surprises!

inlifeindeath · Joined: Apr 02, 2010 Posts: 316 Location: Albuquerque, NM

i'm pretty positive the schem you posted is the circuit i put in my lunetta. you get the more classic ringmod sound when you feed hi frequency square waves in to the input, and then modulate one or both inputs. the diodes are there so no current is feeding back into the oscillators. i believe i used a buffered 4011 hence the little o. don't know if it makes any difference.

acidblue · Joined: Jun 26, 2009 Posts: 226 Location: The Darkside

I'll have to try some experimenting with this.
Maybe try some square wave VCO's, and see if there is a difference.

Like to to try some other chips as well for a ring mod, might
have a couple of 4070's laying around, I'll have to look.

Back to the lab for more diabolical Lunetta fun!

tjookum · Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:17 am Post subject:

RF · Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 4:23 am Post subject:

Just to 'tweak' tjookum... Smile

Here's another 4011 "RingMod" to play with. I think this is the one I used in my Lunetta

bruce

arp.jpg

Description:

Filesize:

33.49 KB

Viewed:

904 Time(s)

This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

inlifeindeath · Joined: Apr 02, 2010 Posts: 316 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Psyingo · Joined: Jun 11, 2009 Posts: 248 Location: Canada

mono-poly · Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 7:31 pm Post subject:

if i feed this circuit with my cd40106 square vco's i barely get any gain at my output signal.

Confused

Sven · Joined: Mar 10, 2017 Posts: 49 Location: Norway

JovianPyx · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:32 am Post subject: Re: Questions about 4011 Ring Mod

Sven · Joined: Mar 10, 2017 Posts: 49 Location: Norway

JovianPyx · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:09 am Post subject:

Analog ringmods are often used to make bell-like sounds because of the harmonics they produce.

This is also true of FM used for bells.

However, in both of those cases, there is no ringing as there is in a real metal bell.

With a metal bell, you strike it and then it rings out from resonance. It needs only the impact energy to ring. An FM or ringmod created bell circuit won't do that, it requires the input remain and then an EG and VCA are used to cause the fade out.

The "ring" sound that you don't hear from the XOR version is because it isn't producing the harmonics that make the real ringmod sound bell-like.

It is unfortunate that the term "ring" is applied because it is quite confusing since it has two meanings in this context which is why I gave a bit of it's semantic history.

Sven · Joined: Mar 10, 2017 Posts: 49 Location: Norway

Thank you for the explanations thanks

JovianPyx · Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:42 am Post subject:

dk · Joined: Feb 12, 2019 Posts: 115 Location: Europe

Out of curiosity, would it be easy to create a "real" ring mod then out of the circuit toward the bottom of this page? (the one without transformers)

Taking a shot at it, we'd have to sum the 2 signals and feed to W1, sum the 2 signals with the carrier reversed in polarity and feed it to W2, and then hook up a differential amplifier to +1 and -1 to get the output?

JovianPyx · Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:35 pm Post subject:

Well, as always, I'll say "try it".

Yes, it will "work". No, it will not sound like a "true" ring modulator (whatever that is).

In fact, there is no such thing as a "true" ring modulator at this point in time. The term has been mash and squished into so many different things that one can't know what it is just by hearing "ring modulator". In some circles (synth), the "true" ring modulator is a 4 quadrant multiplier like MC1496. In other circles (amateur radio) a ring modulator is one that has the diodes and transformers. Many alternate approximations have been designed to attempt to do the same things and in some respects they do.

With the diode and resistor one, you want to use diodes that have very low "on" voltage. Schottky type should work. You also want to hit it with as large of input signals as you can without blowing the diodes. Doing so limits the switching distortion caused by the diodes turning on and off and the signal multiplication effect should be more apparent.

Depending on what kinds of sounds you're looking for, maybe experimenting with different diodes will help. In that case, I'd try Schottky, silicon signal diodes (like 1N4148), germanium (1N34A), silicon power diodes, selenium rectifier diodes and LEDs.

So I'd amplify as much as I can, then put it through the modulator and then attentuate back down to normal signal levels.

gabbagabi · Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:13 am Post subject:

the output-waveform looks quite similar to the one from circuit #4, but it would not suffer from impediance problems:
http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-files/most_versatile_sub_circuit_473.png

(sorry for posting opamps in the lunetta forum again Shocked

)

dk · Joined: Feb 12, 2019 Posts: 115 Location: Europe

Thanks for the insight Jovian! As soon as I free up my breadboard, I may just give it a shot.

Gabbagabi, you mean that your sub circuit would not suffer from impedance problems, or what I had posted?

PHOBoS · Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:25 am Post subject:

gabbagabi · Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2020 4:21 am Post subject:

rofl, yeah burn it!
although one must be carefull with burning east-germans - u know that we come from a highly contaminated part of the past, better consult the ministry of radiation before start buying the gasoline Very Happy

dunno either if the toggler would do the job, probably yes?

the rectifier idea is not a bad one, if u analyse the fonitronic rm it is also based on two rectifiers http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-39762.html,
after messing around with the fonitronik circuit in the simulator, i came up with the attached circuit, the output wave form is not what we would expect from a "real" RM (same with the fonitronic RM) but the spectrum analysis shows the typical two peaks, one at 8khz and one at 10khz, input was 1khz and 9khz, the output is also unipolar - so one should apply a decoupling C/R or may a static offset.

@denmark i meant "my" circuit would not suffer

please let me know if iam to offtopic, but i personally love it to see different approaches to the same goal

Ring-eltaube.png

Description:

Filesize:

55.81 KB

Viewed:

327 Time(s)

This image has been reduced to fit the page. Click on it to enlarge.

dk · Joined: Feb 12, 2019 Posts: 115 Location: Europe

Thanks for posting that gabbagabi... the right half of Fonik's circuit is sort of similar to what I had in mind, but simpler and (probably) better.

As for burning east-germans, we're all wearing masks these days, so it might be less of a problem than it usually would be Very Happy

I feel like half my posts are OT here, but it's great to learn from you guys, even if it involves ::gasps:: opamps and transistors!