Prospective new modular synth person - advice re. RoHS plea.

[Seven seas]

Greetings, electro-music people. My first post and it's a long one - my apologies for that.

I'm hoping the get into the fascinating world of modular synthesis as soon as possible. But already doubts are creeping in......

I am based in the U.K. I'm wondering what effect the R.o.H.S. (European Restriction of Hazardous Substances directive) might have on me.

My concerns are in two areas:

First - the possibility that module manufactures outside Europe will not bother to stop using lead solder (plus associated lead-free parts) and will stop selling equipment to people in Europe.

Second - the possibility (some people, I know, would say certainty) that equipment manufactured to comply with RoHS will be prone to failure within a relatively short period of time.

As I understand it, in very broad terms, the European manufactures are properly the cheaper and lower quality end of the market - with notable exceptions. I'm thinking in particular of Doepfer, Analogue Systems and Analogue Solutions. The 1/8" patching system seems like a source of problems and I'm not too keen on the small size of the modules, although I could live with it.

The American modules seem to be better quality and the 1/4" jacks are, by all accounts I've seen, better.

Therefore I'd quite like to buy some American modules (Blacet, perhaps, but other suppliers also interest me) but if the Americans don't want to deal with Europe any more then I can't really do that.

So that would leave me with Doepfer, Analogue Solutions, Analogue Systems and Cwejman.

I had considered the possibility of a semi-modular which would expand......(of course)! The main contenders would be the Cwejam S1 or, maybe, the Macbeth M5.
(Presumably either one of those would be expandable with most other modules, with some planning. Is that right)? Trouble is - both of those manufacturers are subject to the RoHS so, presumably, if - and I stress if - the theories about increasing failure rates in a lead free environment are correct then either of those units might be problematic. It might be more bearable to have a module breaking down every once in while than an element of a unified system going wrong. (i.e - if I had a proper modular system and one module broke then I could replace that more easily than getting a semi-modular fixed. Although it would be a nightmare if lots of modules broke)!

I do wonder if this might be just a bad time to get into this sort of thing - too soon after the introduction of the RoHS to see how many things break down, too soon for alternative working methods to be properly tested out etc.

Anyway - if anyone's got any thoughts or-even better- sound practical knowledge to contribute I'd be very pleased to hear it . I've done a lot of searching but I'm still confused. I really would like to do it with cables and physical units, not software.

So, to summarise:

Have some manufactures stopped supplying modules to Europe? (Or are they likely to do so)?

Will lead free equipment be significantly less reliable than that built with leaded solder.

(Does anyone know where to buy Cwejam modules in the U.K.)

Many thanks.

[EdisonRex]

I think the weak dollar will have more to do with export issues than RoHS. Europe is a big market, plenty of people will adjust. I don't think the reliability issues are a proven thing. Manufacturing processes will have to change to deal with non-lead solder.

btw I've been waiting for Ken to deliver an M5N to me, for over 6 months. I could have imported a fair sized MoTM or dotcom and had it shipped by boat, by now.

[ndkent]

>Does anyone know where to buy Cwejam modules in the U.K.

It looks to me that http://www.schneidersbuero.de/ covers sales in Europe. Anyway that's what it says on www.cwejman.net

What you probably want to do is go to the site of the modular brand you are interested in. The site will list the dealers if there are any. Quite a few modular makers do not sell to any dealers. It has nothing directly to do with RoHS. If you don't see dealers listed you can only buy from the company directly. Now there might be some new legal issues with exporting that might prevent a sale but generally the manufacturer will sell to anyone not represented by a dealer or mention the dealer can sell to your region.

[Seven seas]

Hello again - thanks for the replies.

I think that the (potential) problems with reliability may not have really had time to show out yet. I suppose manufacturers had quite a bit of notice but surely any R.o.H.S. compliant equipment can't be more than,say, two or three years old. I keep seeing stuff about tin whiskers and the like - not something I have the experience to comment on but it looked worthy of note, put it that way.

I was thinking that the changes in manufacturing processes will probably be quite bearable for large companies - maybe a lot less so for the small businesses. Especially when, presumabaly, enjoying the work is part of it. (I'm told that leadless soldering, done by hand, is a particularly joyless experience)!

I also would think that the stuff bought by the great bulk of the population might be expected to have a fairly short life anyway. A TV that breaks after five years is a pain but, alarmingly, a lot of people would want a new telly after that length of time anyway - just to keep up with new features etc. I reckon most synth owners would want a lot longer out of their equipment. My point being that the unreliability factor might be acceptable for the box shifting, TV selling sector despite any problem experienced by synth enthusiasts.

I had a feeling that the Macbeth option might be drawn out.....I'm certain that your M5N will be worth the wait but I'm so impatient. That sort of wait would kill me! I know it goes with the territory in a way but I'd certainly be inclined to go for something quicker, all other things being equal, you know.

I had a sense that Cwejam didn't have a U.K. outlet - whether or not the U.K is part of Europe sort of depends on who you ask. I think contacting a few manufacturers would be useful, probably.

Thanks for the advice - much appreciated. More contributions very welcome!

Thanks again.

[EdisonRex]

re: tin whiskers

that's got a specific electrical condition associated with it. it is not a new condition, and any DIY-style musician can cure it with regular maintenance (a toothbrush and some isopropyl alcohol). And regular maintenance is more like 6-8 years, which, if you have vintage kit you are doing regular maintenance anyway. It's just understanding some new procedures.

Most consumer electronics has an amazingly short life, especially considering what you are expected to pay for it. Maintenance does help, but some things, like bad caps, you can't do too much with in the long run, except replacing, which when the unit is sealed with NO USER SERVICABLE PARTS INSIDE emblazoned on the outside, is a bit of a problem for most.

There is little mystery surrounding most consumer electronics. Stay away from the mains bits, and there isn't a lot else hot enough to shock you. but that's an opinion, not advice. It's like saying people should go skiing because it's good for you, someone would hit a tree because they aren't careful enough.

Anyway, at the end of the day you have to decide if you want to learn enough to protect your investment. It may very well mean you need to learn more about maintenance. It's not hard stuff, and most studio techs have been doing it for 40+ years now.

[Seven seas]

Hello again

I'm definately willing to learn the skills required to keep things in good order and to put those skills into practice. If you could point me to a nice clear guide that would be really handy and I'd start reading up well in advance! So far so good.....maybe....

I was just looking at the Synthesisers.com Yahoo group and I see that they are not presently exporting to Europe. It seemed that trying to work out all the legal and practical stuff involved was causing the gentleman who runs that company too much grief for a small operation to cope with. In other words he wasn't saying that RoHS made it illegal to export to Europe (for him) but that it was too difficult to find accurate information. So he was erring on the side of caution.

I was concerned by a comment he had apparently made, the thrust of which was that the lead-free joins had the look of bad joins, which disturbed him, and also that equipment which was to be used in "critical missions" (hospital equipment etc.) was excused RoHS. Plainly his interpretation of that was, very sensibly it seems to me, that the RoHS was considered questionable. However - I supose that if you can guarantee that stuff is regularly maintained to a decent standard then that might not matter. Easier if you have sole access, methinks.


Anyway- many thanks for the advice once again. Please do keep it coming - I've got so much to learn.

Goodnight.

[Beermaster]

I got all my Cwejman modules shipped to the UK from Analogue Haven - Really fast and efficient plus the price converted from dollars was better than from the European dealers.

I also have to defend the Euro Rack companies and dispell this myth that they are somehow lower quality than the bigger format US brands. I've had about 130 A-Sys and Doepfer modules in my studios ( a lot of them purchased back in 98 ) and I've only had three faults in that time, only one of them being a jack socket.

As for the variety in the EURO rack brands - well that has to be a no brainer - Way more content and variety than the Larger US formats.

That Said, My favourite filter of all time is the MOTM 440 !

I also don't undertand why people have such a hang up with the smaller size of Euro Rack gear - Do people really have such sausage like fingers that the can't use the smaller gear ? I don't belive that to be true. Its all about the power per space too. So much power in such a small space -

Beer

[norman phay]

The couple of times I've messed around with doepfer and AS gear, it did strike me that the controls and sockets seemed a bit too tightly packed, so that when you had a load of leads plugged in, it was a bit fiddly. This seems less the case w/other euro gear, though I only have photos to go on.

[v-un-v]

[mosc]

Seven Seas, good to have you here.

I tend to agree that 1/8" mini plugs/jacks are not as reliable than 1/4", but I would prefer banana plugs/jacks. Still, none are show stopers and there's no reason not the have a mix in your modular.

Tin whiskers can be controlled by good design and proper post assembly board sealing. I used to work for Buchla and he would treat all of the assembled boards with some kind of electrical sealant. Tin whiskers is a problem with lead or lead-free interconnects and joints. It can even happen inside ICs.

You make some good points about the EU standards. That synthesizers.com doesn't want to deal with the EU bureaucracy is a bad omen. Maybe we need to have a Certified Music Therapist determine that playing with modular synthesizers relaxes a person and leads to better health. Then we could get a medical equipment exemption.

[Seven seas]

Hello, good evening.

Thanks Mosc for your welcome, kind words and capital notion regarding the medicinal properties of synthesis. Perhaps I could get a few devices on the N.H.S. (Medical Insurance -ish thing). Thanks also for the other contributions - it sounds like the size thing could be as personal as a preference for,say, a different guitar. I'm encouraged generally thanks.

If the Cat in the Hat could tell me which element of my post he regards as so ludicrous that it might be meant as a joke then I could respond. None of it was meant as a joke - it was intended to seek some answers to some questions and to invite people to point out to me where and how I had got the wrong idea. I'd hoped it was a polite and reasonably modest message.

Anyway - thanks again. Hopefully in time I'll have more to offer than just questions!

'bye.

[v-un-v]

[cbm]

[skinkerytter]

[blue hell]

Èrm, lead free since 1980, you must be kidding Tom. The first lead free electronic products I ever saw were some japanese consumer goods like md recorders etc., somewhere in the early or mid 90-ties I think.

Small scale production with leadless solder is not so easy, and I'm sure plenty of companies just use lead still.

[v-un-v]

[v-un-v]

[blue hell]

[elektro80]

Well, there were actually attempts in the industry at a transition to non lead materials from approx. 79/80. It didn´t gain much momentum until AFAIK approx. 92-94.

[Seven seas]

Hello again - for now I've bought a Nord G2 but the "real" modular dream ain't dead - merely postponed until I've cleared more space, done more research and then a bit more research.

(V-un-V. I hope I caused no disappointment, distress or mental agony by not being who you thought I was)!

I shall, therefore, pop my head down in here, but UP in the Nord discussions.

Best regards from the dark, windy and lonesome fens, where the beasties howl and the dark waters swirl..................

[EdisonRex]

[bearblock]

7 seas - you seem a little confused. You say you don't want 1/8" jacks then talk about buying Blacet or Cwejman, which both use this patching scheme.

Then the 'Euro = cheap, USA = quality' thing which just seems like naked trolling. There's a handful of synth builders who heavily emphasize mechanical build quality. Some are American, some not. The others (yes, even D***fer) are all on a par with most other studio equipment.

If you want to know if a particular manufacturer is RoHS compliant or not, I suggest contacting them directly. I have had modules by Plan B, Bananalogue and The Harvestman delivered from the USA to the EU without any problems.

[Seven seas]

To BearBlock - frankly, sir, while I do not wish to demean this fine forum and will not do so again, you seem like something of a knob. You have nothing helpful to contribute so why not hold your counsel.
Goodnight.

[mosc]

Bearblock: "seems like naked trolling" is a pejorative expression. Maybe "seems like an over simplification" or something might have communicated the same message without striking a nerve in Seven Seas.

Seven Seas: "you seem like something of a knob" is pejorative too." I think Bear's comment was on point and pretty helpful, actually (except for the above mentioned comment).

Let's try our best to keep things respectful. Thanks...