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v-un-v
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 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:47 pm Post subject:
Let's start another Randal thread Pt II
Subject description: (Only because this time, it's MY turn!) |
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| Randaleem wrote: | | loss1234 wrote: | | building the SN voice into a panel and i am very confused (as usual) by a simple matter. there are around 10 pots and 7 jacks in this module. they all need a ground connection BUT there are only a few ground points on the SN voice board. SO how do i PROPERLY get each of them a ground? solder the ground wire to the panel itself? i dont want to assume anything at this point. thanks |
Hi Loss,
Don't feel bad; GND is not often a "simple matter". Entire BOOKs have been written about the subject of grounding. (So we won't repeat them here!  )
A few key points might help though?
0) What you can get away with is often FAR simpler than what might be technically suggested as "correct", so you will see many examples of "poor" grounding practice that work just fine. So that would mean they aren't "poor" by definition, right?
.5) There is as much Art as there is Science to GNDing considerations and practices. Especially in analog circuits, and even moreso in mixed analog/digital circuits. (So there is no simple, easy across-the-board answer to your question!)
1) Not all GND's are created equal. There are signal returns called GND. Voltage reference points called GND. Safety Earth returns called GND. The first two of these are sometimes referred to as COMmons, to distinguish them from "earth" or safety GND. If you see this distinction on a schematic, you should try to keep the two separate and only join them at ONE point, nearest the power entry to the module, or perhaps even at the power supply itself. Which brings us to:
1.5) A good schematic WILL have clues to help you answer this question. There is more to a good schematic than simply laying out the connections between components. Look for clues the designer left you. Things like having different GND points or symbols on the Schem or PCB. The "pitchfork" Earth GND symbol vs. the three bar triangular shaped GND or the open triangle shape may each represent a different sort of "GND". You may see a reference to D-GND (which means dirty ground or digital ground, usually.) Sometimes you will see multiple numbered or labeled COMmons.
2) When the designer has not left this type of information for you, look to the circuit itself for clues. Or perhaps the designer felt that there was not enough difference between them to specify, and expects you to connect them all together any way you can?!
More likely IMO, is that the designer expects that most builders will understand some basic grounding concepts and figures to let those speak in the absence of more specific instructions.
3) Don't be afraid to try out different arrngements as you are learning! Even experienced electronic people have surprises in this area of Grounding at times!
In nearly all cases, you will not damage anything by tieing everything labeled GND together. But the circuit may not work as well as you'd hoped. (DO however, respect any different labels you see on the PCB or Schematic. Tieing these together MAY create more serious problems!)
So use the clues of the schematic and circuit, and also of similar modules and general practices you see in the field of synths to speed up your learning curve. Expect that this subject of grounding, more than most others in electronics, is a LIFETIME learning process!
4) A few starting suggestions: DON'T use a metal panel as a conductor of signal and reference GNDS. DO use a metal panel as a safety Earth GND. (Means at ONE point on your panel run a wire that is in contact with the metal to a point on your PCB nearest the power input. Run one or more signal and reference gnds in addition to this one.)
Use the internet to help you. Every time a picture is posted which shows the rear of a panel, try to answer this question you've asked by looking at it. Look for things like non-insulated bus wires (often used for GNDing on panels in synths), and see if more than one of these "busses" is in effect on the panel. Ray's MFOS site and others can help. I've not seen Bill's build document for this PCB, but I'd bet it shows the answer to how he planned for GNDs to be handled ? Scott's SNVoice construction writeup at his site has similar useful clues and information.
Think about what the "GND" is doing in the circuit. Most times it will fall into one of the three groups I've mentioned above. A reference for a voltage, a return for a signal, or a safety path for electrons gone astray. The safety path has already been discussed; there should be only one of these for most modules, and separate from all others. However, the remaining signal and reference gnds are OFTEN tied together in both classic and modern synth modules. But you can often improve performance by separating them into more paths, (To specific parts of the circuit they are "returning to" or "referencing from".) using logical thinking. BE the electrons!   Or the holes, if you prefer!
5) EDIT: Harry Bissell, not James Patchell(But some will understand my mistake!) wrote a nice little paper on basics of grounding which Matthias Hermann (Fonik) has available at his website. Worth a read, IMO. Think of yourself as an electron running an obstacle course, or floating in the "current" Harry describes here. Trying to "get back" to where you came from. Think about the splitting and merging of "rivers", "oceans" and "lakes" full of electron "rafter's", and also notice constrictions where the water dries up and you have to "walk". Also look for "eddies", "dams" and "fish ladders" that may leave you circling without getting where you're going. IMO this is not really as silly as it might seem.
I know you were looking for a simple answer. And for this single module there is one. Likely Bill (StateMachine, who laid out this board) is the best resource for that answer. But my doing that is handing you a fish, when learning how TO fish might better serve your long term needs? Hey, while you're floating about in all this "current", why not eat well!
Kind regards, Randal |
Sorry  run me through that question again? Some pots, some sockets and a ground connection??
err, where, what, who, when, if, with??.........I'm so confused!!
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject:
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PS Poor, poor, poor Lossy 
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blue hell
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | PS Poor, poor, poor Lossy |
Don't know, I managed to read upto point 0.5) Lossy gave up earlier I'm sure |
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blue hell
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | What you can get away with is often FAR simpler than what might be technically suggested as "correct", so you will see many examples of "poor" grounding practice that work just fine. So that would mean they aren't "poor" by definition, right? |
So I hit that old lady on the head, she dies, which is bad, but I get away with it. so it's not bad by definition .. right?
I really can't go on reading after something like that. |
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:10 pm Post subject:
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Why "0.5"??? A half? 1/2???
why not 2.5? why go up to 3? Where's two and a half gone?
And what's art got to do with grounding? Jackson Pollock?? 
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elektro80
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | And what's art got to do with grounding? Jackson Pollock?? |
Charles Bukowski
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject:
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Q; How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?
A; The fish.
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frijitz
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject:
Re: Let's start another Randal thread Pt II
Subject description: (Only because this time, it's MY turn!) |
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| Randaleem wrote: | | loss1234 wrote: | | building the SN voice into a panel and i am very confused (as usual) by a simple matter. there are around 10 pots and 7 jacks in this module. they all need a ground connection BUT there are only a few ground points on the SN voice board. SO how do i PROPERLY get each of them a ground? solder the ground wire to the panel itself? i dont want to assume anything at this point. thanks |
Hi Loss,
Don't feel bad; GND is not often a "simple matter". Entire BOOKs have been written about the subject of grounding. (So we won't repeat them here! ) |
Anybody familiar with these "books"?
The Keithly "Low Level Measurements" handbook has exactly one page on the topic.
Books?
And Art?
Like green wire for trees and white wire for stars or something?
Ian |
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fonik
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Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject:
Re: Let's start another Randal thread Pt II
Subject description: (Only because this time, it's MY turn!) |
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| frijitz wrote: | | Like green wire for trees and white wire for stars or something? |
gotcha!
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EdisonRex
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject:
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yeah Ian. I am waiting without holding my breath for the ISBN for the Big Book On Grounding (Vol 1).
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Scott Stites
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject:
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My God, it's full of stars......
| Quote: | Hi,
Thank you all for the answers so far. There seems to be some confusion
or overlap in some of these based on conflicts in answers? (No wonder
I've been wondering!)
I hope others will continue to answer to either confirm or contest the
answers so far given. It would be nice to have this info as accurate as
possible and posted somewhere readily available to all of us?
Meanwhile, I'll try to answer the questions posed below.
>In SergeModular@yahoogroups.com, "riluttante" <riluttante> wrote:
>I know what AC and DC stand for, but can someone explain the
>functional difference in the Serge system between these two?
AC coupled means there is a capacitor at the input which the signal
must go through to be further processed. The functional effect of this
is that DC will not be passed. Therefore if you place an AC signal at
this input, its DC component (its offset from gnd, above OR below, or
both!) will be removed. This can help in "converting" CV's into "audio"
or "signals". It may also be used to eliminate a CV "carrier" from an
audio signal.
Words like signal, CV and Audio are necessarily limiting in a
discussion like this. When does a fast changing CV become a signal?
When does a slow moving "audio" signal become a CV? best to simply know
that there is a capacitor there, and then seek to learn enough about
capacitors to understand what will happen to various types of inputs
applied there.
Other capacitor effects may be present at AC coupled inputs, such as
input resistance changes due to capacitive reactance. (A fancy way of
saying that a capacitor acts like a resistor to a greater and lesser
degree depending upon its size in uF and the relationship between that
size and the input frequency.) Usually the circuit designer in most
general synth audio paths will attempt to minimise these kinds of "side
effects" for the expected signal frequencies to be encountered, by
careful selection of the capacitor size chosen for AC coupling. Other
times a capacitor may be chosen to take advantage of this effect, and
instead of attempting to be "transparent" to the signal going through,
it is acting as a consciously applied filter of the incoming signal.
DC coupled means there is no capacitor. Just a direct wire. Therefore
the DC component of the input is allowed to pass through maintaining
its "height" above or below ground. AC signals are not affected in any
way. This can cause problems when an AC signal is not centered about
ground equally. Because then the DC components do not cancel out and we
may hear their potential differences expressed as nasty clicks, pops,
or other (usually!) undesirable artifacts in the sound output. (Which
is one reason why we are given the option of AC coupling!)
>I understand from the above description that a bipolar, -5v to +5v
>output may still be DC coupled?
Yes. DC or AC coupling does not limit the inputs you can use, it
affects what gets passed on to the next stage in sound or CV processing.
Put a DC CV into an AC coupled input and nothing gets through, unless
the CV is changing fast enough in voltage level to be considered as AC
by the capacitor at the input. Conversely, if you have summed(mixed) CV
into your audio, and you put this through a DC coupled input; further
processing may not behave as expected due to the fact that the audio is
no longer centered around ground.
So there are reasons to use these AC and DC coupled inputs as intended,
and also reasons to go against their originally intended functions.
Just know that there is a capacitor on the AC coupled inputs and
experiment from there!
>Thanks for the questions and answers, good to see some of the basics
>explained!
Yes, thank you as well.
Kind regards, Randal
> > Very early Serges sometimes used Green for sync and
> > white for CV, and I've seen white used for the coupler
> > on SSGs (which swings -10v to +10v).
> > Steve |
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blue hell
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | (A fancy way of saying that a capacitor acts like a resistor to a greater and lesser degree depending upon its size in uF and the relationship between that size and the input frequency.) |
Yup just like a resistor, except that it doesn't dissipate, caps are ideal resistors really!
| Quote: | Because then the DC components do not cancel out and we
may hear their potential differences expressed as nasty clicks, pops,
or other (usually!) undesirable artifacts in the sound output. (Which
is one reason why we are given the option of AC coupling!) |
 I never knew that ... AC coupling will get rid of my clicks, great ! Thanks for the tip! |
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Scott Stites
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:36 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | Meanwhile, I'll try to answer the questions posed below.
>In Obviousfacts@yahoogroups.com, "gain1234" <Gainy> wrote:
>I know what oxygen and carbon dioxide are, but can someone explain the
>functional difference between these two?
Oxygen is the part of the air that goes into your lungs so that it can be further processed by your body.
The functional effect of this is that you remain conscious and sentient for years on end. If you breathe in
air, its oxygen component (the part of the air that is oxygen) will be inhaled. This can help help you by
permitting your body to remain alive. Oxygen may also be used to eliminate the problem of not being
alive because of carbon dioxide.
Words like oxygen, carbon dioxide and breathing are necessarily limiting in a discussion like this. When
does a pocket of air become a breath? When does an oxygen atom get expelled? best to simply know
that there is air there, and then seek to learn enough about respiration to understand what will happen to
various types of people when they fail to breathe.
Other types of gases may pass through your mouth (and or nose!), such as carbon monoxide and ozone
(a fancy kind of oxygen). Usually the person who is breathing will know if air is going in, and if there is
enough oxygen there, so that he can minimise the kinds of "side effects" brought on by breathing air that
is not oxygen (like carbon dioxide, and it's cousin, carbon MONOxide!!). Careful selection of the air that
is breathed inwards is thus very important. At times, the oxygen may have the effect of making you feel
dizzy or lightheaded, but don't confuse this with carbon dioxide! You can breathe too much air that has
oxygen in it, which is almost as bad as breathing carbon monoxide, or helium, which is a gas, too. Instead
of attempting to breathe too much oxygen, you should breathe just enough where you feel comfortable,
until consciously applied breathing becomes almost second nature.
Carbon dioxide is for breathing out. Don't breathe in carbon dioxide!! That is for
trees, which is a subject that's best left unspoken here. With carbon dioxide, there is oxygen,
but the oxygen is stuck to some carbon. Your body knows this and blocks the carbon and the
oxygen that it's stuck to!!! Because your body doesn't want/need the carbon part. That is why you
breathe it out. Sure, you lose oxygen in the process, but you're still getting rid of that carbon, too,
which is a good thing! The carbon dioxide component is the part that goes out of not only your mouth, but your
nose as well. Some people tend to prefer breathing out of their nose - often, an open, hanging mouth is
considered poor form, and the nose can be used to pass the carbon and oxygen mixture from either one or
both nostrils. You may think that flatulence could dissipate the carbon dioxide. You'd only be partially
right, but really, flatulence mainly consists of a type of gas known as methane, which, conversely,
is a type of air quite different from oxygen, but is not needed by your body, either.
You don't normally "breathe out" (exhale) methane, and you certainly don't want to breathe it in (LOL).
In order for the carbon dioxide component to be expelled, one must relax the diaghram,
which is a meaty muscle in your abdomen, and controls breathing. The pressure of the atmosphere
(which contains many kinds of gases besides oxygen and carbon dioxide) forces the carbon dioxide
out of your lungs (the organs within your chest that are responsible for bringing oxygen to your body).
By the same token, when you're a lung, every freeborne molecule begins to look like a hammer! You *must*
contract your diaphram in order to create the vacuum required to draw the air particles (which will have oxygen
in them) into the lungs, through a tube that runs from your mouth to your throat. The tube will not let the air go
into your stomach, so you can relax about that (for now), just remember this axiom I learned from the great Dr.
Spock, when I was young. I've stuck to it all of my life, from when I was a young man enthralled with middle
earth and maidens in distress, through my formative years being trained to dazzling heights as a product
designer, to my later, fruitful years as God's gift to electronics in general and synthesizers in particular: "In
with the good air, out with the bad." Take that to heart, my friend, it will last you a lifetime.
Kind Regards,
Crandall |
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elektro80
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:06 am Post subject:
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dazzling heights and God´s gift
Oh yeah..!
THX scott! A nice one!
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fonik
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:25 am Post subject:
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| Scott Stites wrote: | | Quote: | Meanwhile, I'll try to answer the questions posed below.
>In Obviousfacts@yahoogroups.com, "gain1234" <Gainy> wrote:
>I know what oxygen and carbon dioxide are, but can someone explain the
>functional difference between these two?
Oxygen is the part of the air that goes into your lungs so that it can be further proc...
[...]
...ugh a tube that runs from your mouth to your throat. The tube will not let the air go
into your stomach, so you can relax about that (for now), just remember this axiom I learned from the great Dr.
Spock, when I was young. I've stuck to it all of my life, from when I was a young man enthralled with middle
earth and maidens in distress, through my formative years being trained to dazzling heights as a product
designer, to my later, fruitful years as God's gift to electronics in general and synthesizers in particular: "In
with the good air, out with the bad." Take that to heart, my friend, it will last you a lifetime.
Kind Regards,
Crandall |
|
scott, you saved my day!!!!! i'd never thought i would read newspaperlike posts again, but that one: : 
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matthias
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blue hell
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:36 am Post subject:
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| Quote: | Words like signal, CV and Audio are necessarily limiting in a
discussion like this. When does a fast changing CV become a signal?
When does a slow moving "audio" signal become a CV? best to simply know
that there is a capacitor there, and then seek to learn enough about
capacitors to understand what will happen to various types of inputs
applied there. |
| Quote: | Words like oxygen, carbon dioxide and breathing are necessarily limiting in a discussion like this. When
does a pocket of air become a breath? When does an oxygen atom get expelled? best to simply know
that there is air there, and then seek to learn enough about respiration to understand what will happen to
various types of people when they fail to breathe. |
Is that what they learn with the free masons, to think and write like that? |
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v-un-v
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:54 am Post subject:
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Well it's not an academic style- it just reads like gobbledeegook to me. It seems to take several paragraphs just to say, "solder this wire to that".
Randal makes the reading of DIY electronics dull, laborious, flabby and over complex- all because he loves the sound of his own voice. I wish he would just shut up.
Is he a freemason? I dunno, but since freemasons seem to be accountants rather than physicists, that would make a lot of sense.
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DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
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blue hell
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:11 am Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | | Well it's not an academic style- |
It could have been written by a bot |
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fonik
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:53 am Post subject:
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but one will have to admit: it's pretty hard to nail him down...
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frijitz
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:35 am Post subject:
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Scott --
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Tim Servo
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject:
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| fonik wrote: | | but one will have to admit: it's pretty hard to nail him down... |
Yeah, but you could say the same thing about Jell-O.
Tim (there's always room for) Servo |
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