Here comes the slime, crawling out of the holes....

[v-un-v]

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-33218.html

1 post from the poster I see. All the others have contributed very little as well. I want to see the original letter (scan/ photocopy), with government stamp of approval. I also want to have confirmation (proper photocopy/ scan) from Moog Music Inc USA, that it is okay to copy a Minimoog's PCB's. I'm sure Moog are happy about that?

I'm fed up with this bullshit. First VCS3's, now the MiniMoog.

[elektro80]

I haven´t read that post yet. Do I want to?

BTW, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moog_Music

[v-un-v]

Jan had it pretty much under control, but then more insects started to creep, and now we have the one dude who writes text, but shows no actual written proof.

It's not a vicious thread at all. Nothing like the two D's

[elektro80]

I dunno what to say about all this. According to norwegian law, intent is a vital part of the mess. Posting oldish but extensive tech info intended for service/maintenance purposes would be just fine. However, the same posted as part a major product cloning operation would not be OK. In the case of the Minimoog, recreating the original circuitry in some kind of new context for personal use is probably quite acceptable, but duplicating the product is questionable beyond doubt. And as Moog Music now again owns the Minimoog name.... well..

I guess it boils down to how you use the published information.

However, the current discussions involving EMS and Moog products do tend to diffuse the ethical issues ..as pointed out by Paul.

[v-un-v]

Perhaps you should also phone Robin?

I tell you, I felt so physically sick after I put the phone down. Howard was right, you can chat all you like over the internet, but actually talking to someone is a very different matter.

I think today the internet very much is part of the problem. People don't socialise so much, because they are all on farcebook. It was obvious to me that Robin hadn't even heard of Farcebook!!

I really beginning to feel, that we should start taking the route both Ian Fritz and Bridechamber have taken. Hang out on electro-music.com, and use it as a forum for the help to build all of Bridechamber's fantastic contributed projects. But then that would be crazy, because we would loose such jems from people like Nicholas (single op synth modular), and all the other honest contributors that make this forum so great (there is masses really?!). Donna and Demon need to act in a more grown up, more civilised way.

Why are these guys all minimal posters too? It's like trying to deal with the spammers!

[elektro80]

Donna? Ahh,.. the ever helpful Donna Foreskin?

[elektro80]

[v-un-v]

No. Perhaps not. Robin is a frail man

[elektro80]

To me it seems that both the Minimoog clone thread + the Erskine IP thread were seriously derailed pretty much from the start. Kinda reminds me of a seriously demented weekend in Paris some 25 years back. We had this prog jam electronic concept band thing with some french dudes and after a session the neighbor upstairs came bursting in and started to show off his foreign legion campaign medals from the French Indochina. Hmm.. that didn´t make much sense but that was kinda the point anyway when I think back. Or not. Damned hard to say really.

[v-un-v]

No, I think you are right. I reckon just leave it. They'll soon get bored.

[elektro80]

Those medals smelled of fish. That was very disturbing.

[EdisonRex]

Perhaps I shouldn't have apologised to Erskine for calling him a troll.

One track mind. "In a world where there is only expired patents, why is there any risk in using designs? Everybody's doing it!" And if you answer it, he doesn't understand, then snipes, and then takes offense. Fuck this noise.

I should have told him not to let the door hit him on the ass on the way out.

[v-un-v]

But you're right. You shouldn't have apologised. He is a troll.

I felt like I've been in an episode of the Dragon's Den!!



edit; whoops!

[elektro80]

[v-un-v]

Hey! England in a nutshell!

[blue hell]

I see that the saga continued itself today ... the dutch D is gone it seems ... he'd be better at home at synthforum.nl anyway. Now lets hope the other D gets bored too ... what a mess.

[EdisonRex]

Well, I tried, because I thought it would be a good record of (at least) of my opinion, which Erskine isn't having any of. Heh. It occurs to me I could use Erskine's threat to not post his circuits as an inconsistency on his part. If they're based on other people's circuits then we'd already have them, or someone does. But actually I can't really be arsed, he's not worth it and I already said all I want. I did like demian sniping about "the team sticks up for each other".. at least he noticed that.

Yeah I think we'll get a couple more potshots from Erskine and he'll either stay or go. Although I am sorely tempted to change his forum rank to "Pedantic Troll", I'll resist the urge.

[v-un-v]

[v-un-v]

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-310242.html#310242

I knew that TekniK would have his last say. In fact I'm surprised that its taken him this long to get around to posting.

[v-un-v]

Good reply Paul. Section 512 should keep their urges suppressed for a while!

[EdisonRex]

If they don't like it, they can make their own forums.

[elektro80]

Great posts, Paul.

[v-un-v]

[elektro80]

Possibly I read the posts to fast.. but cloned EMS look-a-alike knobs.. is that a problem? I still have an old current/voltage adjustable power supply from 1972 that uses EMS style knobs. Looked identical last time I checked.

[v-un-v]

Well my Jen SX-1000 also uses Cliff K1 knobs too. The point was, that I was trying to see if these were being ordered for a genuine reason or they were being ordered for cloning? (Most probably the latter) No one (demian) was giving me a straight answer. Eventually demian admitted thats what they were for- cloning as well as restoring EMS equipment. I don't have a problem with restoring, but if someone has a Synthi 100, don't you think that they would also be able to afford to buy their own knobs for it? Go into production themselves? It doesn't make any sense. Anyway that's besides the point. Again, it's another really fine line, but what really is the point in getting a load of cheap (and I mean bargain basement) knobs remade, when you can order much nicer ones from somewhere else (like for eg helping ericcolleridge out in the Buchla cloning thread for eg). Eric can't quite get the numbers needed to reproduce that knob (Don Buchla btw was quite happy to let people reproduce the 200 model).

I probably would have turned a blind eye to demian, if he wasn't being so coy and so defensive. But I smelt a rat (well probably more of a mouse ) a while back, after looking through his website (which was also linked to Derek Revell's who was supplying the cloned VCS3 boards). I think Derek was genuinely embarrassed, and at the end of the day it is of course up to Derek to choose whether or not selling these cloned boards from the exact originals is a good thing or not. Again, it's also up to Derek whether he sells these or not- that's fine by me, that's not my business, it's also his site. But then demian also has his own site, but is using electro-music.com to reach a larger audience, so he can reproduce these knobs again. You need an awful lot of the to be manufactured to make it worth the while. But between £2 and £6 for what essentially is a cheap knob?

Yes, okay, it's essentially a bit ridiculous on my part to stand against someone who wants to reproduce a cheap knob for now a hellish price- but if people want to pay that- fine (I pointed that out too in the thread too- when I was being civil), but then not to come clean about his real intentions?

I had phoned Robin (wood) to check if it was okay that a few people on our forum could build their own clones of the vcs3. I know at first I was also thinking about it, but the response from Robin was really gut wrenchingly awful, as he put it quite clear to me that this wasn't on. I suppose I was repeating Robin's anger when demian just carried on like business as usual (it seems Robin doesn't like modern technology- unlike Peter Zinovieff, who loves computers, and probably wouldn't give a fig whether someone remade the vcs3). Then after a few more attempts to persuade demian to reconsider his actions, he called me a troll. I mean you don't call people a troll without expecting some kind of revolt right? I was the only person on the forum here, who had contacted EMS to ask for permission. I wasn't even expecting to get an answer, but I did. That's when I called demian dishonest, and that's when Donna went bananas at me. So I just though "fuck you both". Donna was probably right- I'm not being a very good moderator here, but I just can't shake those memories of Eno, or Delia Derbyshire shaking that joystick around, while I'm hiding behind the sofa after watching Dr Who, especially when knowing full well, that these thigs are still- apparently being made- or at least you must take Robin's worrd for even, even if you do think that he's a looser.

It's easy to say stuff on the internet, but when you actually speak to someone, the whole dynamic changes.

I know this wasn't much significance, but imo it's just one step closer to taking Robin over, through the back door- so to speak. Someone will do it, but I'd rather we could watch and stare with a clear conscience rather than knowing that we just sat on our arses, and blamed it on 'progress'- or something like that.

We've already unleashed the Klee on the world, lets unleash more innovations on the world, not rehashes of what has already been done- and without permission too. I'm really sorry that both demian and Donna got it in the neck, but I felt that it was important to take initiative. I've probably made a few more enemies, but like I said, that's something I'm prepared to live with. Moderator or not, I can't be a luvvy with everyone I meet.

What was the question again? Knobs? oh yes. Knobs.