Introducing randaleem - the energy vampire

[Uncle Krunkus]

I don't know if this will help with working out the "rules", but here goes: -
As I understand it, Tom Fenn and I came up with the "do the Klee and make some money for Mosc" idea. We approached Scott almost immediately to see if he was interested, and he was. So the "spirit" of the venture was this,
A member of the forum comes up with an idea for a project, and has probably already shared it with other members to some degree. The "EM-DIY co-operative" approach the member and ask if they would like to submit their idea for a run of PCBs. If they give their permission, a poll is taken to see just how much interest there is. Then someone is assigned the task of laying out the PCB (in our case we chose ExpressPCB as the files are easy to share) Doing the PCB layout and schematics is a team effort, which is cross checked and geared towards being professional, reliable and properly thought through. Transparency in design and motivation are built in to the process.
If at least 30 boards are ordered, the price per unit is low enough that each member only pays in the order of US$20-30, and that includes US$10 which goes directly to Howard to help with site upkeep. The boards are actually ordered and paid for through the EM shopfront.
The rights to the circuit remain the property of the originator.
And,..
Even though I did the layouts for the Klee, I believe the rights to the PCB artwork should become the property of electro-music. Because,.... that is the spirit in which the idea was started.
I only ever imagined that we would take on one idea at a time. The Klee is a BIG project. Quite involved, and yet good for learning all the issues. The next one, if any, could be a simple little VC panner etc. which takes a quarter of the time to complete. The main principles would stay the same though.
I imagined that further down the track there would be a number of boards under our belt, and a way for members to initiate a "re-release". As the rights to the artwork would stay with EM, this would be a decision that could be made by the current "EM-DIY co-operative". Even if the original circuit designer was no longer around.

How to make all this "legal", I'm not sure. Maybe I'm a bit naive, cos I thought that everybody would be happy to do things this way. Hell, I don't even have a full time job, but I think I have a fairly good idea of what is right and wrong. I don't believe in digging my friends pockets for profit.

[elektro80]

Great post! THX!

[Scott Stites]

Excellent, Andy.

On the schematics, which will be provided for all who purchase the Klee Board Set, I've got the names of all who have participated in the project:

Andy Sharp, Tom Fenn, Tom Bugs, Bill Manganaro, and myself are under the copyright. I believe I will put specifically "Copyright electro-music.Com, All Rights Reserved" on it. Perhaps, there I could also put "Howard Moscovitz, Administrator".

Hey! This has the added advantage of making Howard pony up for the lawyer if it's ever needed

[Uncle Krunkus]

Cool,
although I like "Andrew" rather than "Andy" in print.
Maybe Jan deserves a mention too?

[blue hell]

[Scott Stites]

Hmmm...did I put "Andy" or "Andrew" already? If not, I can fix it.

FWIW, I hate it when people call me "Scotty".

"Beam me up Scotty" hyar hyar, never heard that one before.

I have a slot reserved for Jan in the credits section of the ops manual. I can put him on the schematic, too.

[mosc]

Hmmmm....

The Open Hardware License seems to give away all rights as long as the heritage is always connected with whatever product comes forth. In this case, Randall would be delighted. In this case, it is TH's name that has value.

As far as I can tell, and I talked to someone very familiar with the law last evening over dinner, the schematics, BOMs, PCB artwork, manuals, etc can be copyrighted, but the circuit itself can only be protected by a patent. Even then, it's very difficult to protect a circuit patent. Most circuit patents are used in exchange programs. IE, IBM and Motorola have agreements to share circuit patents.

So, documents could be protected with a Creative Commons license. I personally prefer "all rights reserved"; you can always grant rights to anyone you want. But, I would be very very unhappy if someone used my name or electro-music.com's name on a product without my permission. (I already granted permission for the Klee, of course). If Randall uses Thomas Henry's name and releases some garbage, then Thomas' reputation would be smeared. Your name is your trademark and you must protect it.

I, unfortunately, don't have the money to support an IP lawyer, but it seems to me it is appropriate for TH to warn Randall not to use his name on any product, unless it is OK with him. He could do that privately or on a public forum (the warning could be in general - "the use of my name in association with any derivative product or publication is prohibited".)

[Rob]

[Scott Stites]

Thanks for that Rob! Nice to meet you, here.

[v-un-v]

[Kassen]

[elektro80]

I think this thread really belongs in the DIY mod helpers forum. Would that be OK? I started this thread out of concern re the DIY community here and even though the thread is a bit all over the place, it could serve as some kind of reference or whatever inside the DIY-mh forum?

[elektro80]

Re Randaleem.. he is still working hard on the "love me" part and I guess we´ll just let him knock himself out . He might have his ass buried because of all the promises, but that is his problem.

[Scott Stites]

I wouldn't have a problem with it being moved to the mod helper's forum, meself.

[fonik]

so this thread is now to be found in the modhelper area.

forgive me, but i am too tired to read through all this and some of the information may have become redundant meanwhile anyway.
could anybody explain in short terms the state of affairs concerning randal? is there any behavioral code?

[elektro80]

You don´t have to read the lot.

[v-un-v]

Hi Matthias

I think we're just keeping a close eye on him for now. But like Stein is saying, he's playing 'luvvy' at athe moment- I presume that there is too much to loose here for him?

[fonik]

he didn't get back to me anyways. neither concerning the TH SCM PCB he once ordered nor for the SSM2164 he promised me...

[elektro80]

The real problem was that he was bothering a lot of the guys bigtime. Lucklily noone granted him more "rights" or "permissions"than.. huh.. TH and the QFG and Scott and the miniKLEE...?

We kinda sorted out that he isn´t acting on behalf of the community so that angle is covered. If he is a nice boy and doesn´t get himself into a lot of trouble with all those promises.. then he might as well end up as being a good customer. However, I suspect he is struggling bigtime with being some kind of Randal that might be more exciting than simply being Randal.

[Thomas Henry]

School has started up big time, and I probably won't be able to contribute too regularly until the next break. (In fact, I should be in bed right now for tomorrow's all-day meetings with our new Dean...) But I thought I should probably pitch in a bit here.

When Randaleem first contacted me about the QFG he seemed a bit wordy, but basically okay. (That'll teach me to assess a person from a single PM). I told him he could do a PCB for the project, with several stipulations. First, he must provide excellent service to the buyers since my name would be associated with it as the designer. Second, if he did it for a profit (which I didn't object to), then I would want a certain royalty on each one sold. And third, my name would be prominently displayed on the materials. (Okay, so I have an ego problem).

Anyway by the second PM---and certainly by the twentieth---I had come to conclusion that here was an opportunist of the worst sort. Besides boring the hell out of me with interminable and incessant PMs it was clear here was a guy simply wanting to make a quick buck off of other people's work. (I went through this previously with a certain Australian chap with no scruples or common sense whatsoever). I also deeply resented the continual name dropping, especially that of one of my friends from the synth world who died several years ago. Lloyd Bentsen's line, "I knew Jack Kennedy, and you're no Jack Kennedy" comes to mind. And the fact that no one even knew the guy's name was uncanny.

However, I had given him permission for this project and didn't want to go back on my word. I actually consider the QFG project to be fairly trivial (it basically represented a single night's work), so even though I was vaguely vexed, I decided I didn't care what happened with it. I still don't. Had it been the SN-Voice, however, I probably would have channeled F. Lee Bailey to initiate immediate court proceedings!

I'm at a stage in life where the most important thing to me is simply hearing back that someone has enjoyed building one of my designs; I no longer depend on DIY projects to make my house payments (as I once did for nearly a decade). And, of course, I will want to be remembered for having always provided good "customer service" whether it be when I did things commercially or now when Scott and I help newcomers with fun and free projects.

So anyway, I screwed up by trusting the guy from the outset. But I'm not going to go back on my word to him (which would lower me to his level). Randaleem is free to do whatever he wants with the project, simply because I don't care anymore. But I will never respond to another PM from him. As Beaver Cleaver once said about Larry Mondello when he was angry with him, "I'm just going to pretend he's a big pile of trash."

I don't know what mischief he's causing elsewhere, but from my point of view, this is a closed case. It's a non-issue. I'd rather concentrate on creating new projects and enjoy the results of working with the excellent and honorable PCB designers such as State Machine, Tim Servo and Fonik.

And that's the thing to keep in mind, I think. Randaleem was an anomaly; the rest of the gang here (well...apart from the chap in Australia whose nether regions I'd like to kick with a hobnailed boot) represent all that's good in the DIY world.

Thomas "Studs" Henry

[mosc]

[v-un-v]

[Scott Stites]

Right - Laurie Biddulph. His take was, because he didn't know how to or couldn't get hold of Thomas, it was just right as rain to start producing and selling a PCBs of one of Thomas' designs. Where Randal is Mondelesque in his exhaustive request/demand for permission, Laurie is perhaps more Eddie Haskellian in his less-than-exhaustive appreciation of IP.

Even when Elby "gives credit" where credit is due, it's done in such a way as to be almost subliminal. Check out the technical documents on Elby Designs. Somewhere towards the end of a doc, one might catch a reference of where the information was stole...err, pasted from, but boldy printed on each sheet is "Elby Designs". I've seen more than once someone ask about a very nicely written document, which Elby makes available, only to hear someone say "Yeah, that was written by Elby". It's pretty easy to get that impression if you look at what he has there.

It's Eddie at the back of the class, peeking at Wally's paper during a math quiz....

[mosc]

Ahhh, Elby...

Now things are becoming clearer.

Thomas and Scott referring to Leave It To Beaver as a literary source for understanding the human condition. I'm going to have to watch those reruns.

I have always sought inspiration in Sargent Bilco myself.

[v-un-v]