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EdisonRex
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Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 4579 Location: London, UK
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject:
Let's start another Randal thread! Subject description: only because I'm speechless |
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and I do not want to pollute another thread.
Can anybody actually translate this into English? I can't see past Bullshit.
| He Who Would Not Be Named wrote: |
Hi Ryk!
I think there's a middle ground between Buchlidian and moogian you haven't mentioned which can play into how this circular cycle is realised.
I'd call it E-mu'dlian. What I think is missing from many modulars these days is a multiplicity of IO on EACH module. Instead, we often have ONE v/oct input, and ONE signal output. We have to choose BETWEEN A/C OR D/C coupling of a SINGLE modulation input. Some modules have attenuverters and some have built in mixers. But by and large, most modern modules (of EITHER type you've defined here) have a very limited number of patch points.
Space has been traded for utility. Synergy and serendipity have been compromised. The basic premise often used to justify this is that external mixers and mults can be used. And that's often true. But ARE THEY???, really?
I think it's a fairly strong case that IF a module HAS multiple IO's they will be played with more likely than if it does not!
I labeled this E-mu'dlian because IMO it is best embodied by the E-mu modular. Have a look at this technical module description for the E-mu Modular (warning 4.9meg PDF): http://www.emulatorarchive.com/assets/PDF/E-mu%20Systems%20Catalog%201978.pdf
Notice that even the VCA has THREE inputs (two attenuated) and Multiple CV and CV controls. Other modules in this system have a similar bounty of IO. My point?
The reason I quoted your endless circle from strange to normal is that IMO if you build "normal" modules with multiple IO patch points and include attenuators/inverters and mixers, you will not as often find yourself bored so quickly and in need of a quiick fix from a "strange" addition. (Many of which can actually be broken down into their component parts; i.e., they are often really just "pre-patched groups" of "normal" modules. Perhaps even making use of multiple internal routings unavailable in the "normal" modules they are built from!)
People often do not purchase the necessary "utility" modules to work in concert with their modern panels and dearth of connections in the name of space saving and economics. So they've got a mult or two, and mixer here or there. But when it comes time to patch, are these REALLY used as much as they "should" or "could" be?
And IMO this transcends a "type" of synthesis you might build towards. Whether yor goal is classical music, or Noize, this still applies.
I recently posted two panels for the TH QFG PCB I'm offering. One has the typical modern minimum, the other is rather more full-featured. They can be seen here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-19225-115.html
Which one do you think will find more "strange" uses? And yet also be more useful in a "normal" module lineup?
I've even decided that there is little reason to have AC/DC switches on the wider one shown. I need to just put jacks where those are and then both AC/DC is available on each of the two modulation inputs.
One of the primary gains one can realise from DIY is to increase the patchpoints, compared to commercial modules. Commercially it is too expensive to do. Especially in an era where "size matters", and price is paramount. The added cost to a mfr is prohibitive. But to a DIY'er it is often little more than a mindset, and a matched resistor and jack (for v/oct input), jack, pot and resistor (for an additional modulation input), or a single opamp Vfollower stage (for an additional output).
So, to summarise, I think the "normal" vs. "strange", or East coast/ West coast division is blurred very nicely by adding IO/patchpoints and atten/mixing of those points. Bob Moog himself said in later years that the largest mistake he made with the modulars was not to have enough attenuators on inputs. (Many early moog users will remember the little-pots-on-plugs used to correct that fault!)
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What the heck does that have to do with Ryk's thread? I went into overload just trying to understand what he was talking about.
Sorry, I was trying to do real work today, and I saw it and I got totally derailed. And I have to reply to him, he mailed me, it's time to pay him $35 for my QFG boards and a couple chips. Sigh. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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v-un-v
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Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8932 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Let's start another Randal thread! Subject description: only because I'm speechless |
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| EdisonRex wrote: |
What the heck does that have to do with Ryk's thread? I went into overload just trying to understand what he was talking about.
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It's just about Randal and nuttin' else!!
I want Randie to tell us what he means by "noize"  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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v-un-v
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:11 pm Post subject:
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OTOH, perhaps he hasn't sold as many PCB's as he was hoping?  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject:
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Paul, this is promotion of the QFG boards.. and then some Noize.
I read this a few times. His text doesn´t make much sense, but still there is a familiar ring to it. I wonder if he has struck some gold somewhere on the net and then been busy rewriting someone else´s musings on the subject. I think I´ve read some of this stuff before somewhere. But where..?
There is one very striking feature with all of Randal´s synth theory/philosophy posts and that is seemingly a complete lack of understanding of a musical approach to patching/voicing/playing and performance related issues. I dunno, would´t you say this is a bit like if Ernest Hemingway suddenly goes in a feminist phase and tries to be Gloria Steinem? And yes.. I know Hemingway shot himself.  _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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EdisonRex
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:38 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: |
OTOH, perhaps he hasn't sold as many PCB's as he was hoping?
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No idea, Tom. I'll look forward to my QFGs, although i didn't buy his option cards. I have no intention of supporting that. Bad enough I went as far as I did but I have to get these boards... We'll see.
Anyway, can you make ANY sense from that post? he's ranting about DIY being like EMU or something. EMU got bought by Ensoniq, which got bought by Creative Tech, and buried. What's this got to do with anything that a DIY person believes in?
I'm curious and I can't just flame him in the forums. Tom, you might, but I can't.
Stein, interesting and probably good analysis. He is such a seagull though. You know the kind, swoops in, shits and swoops away. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:45 pm Post subject:
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Paul, isn´t he kinda referring to the EMU modulars.. way before the samplers. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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EdisonRex
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: |
There is one very striking feature with all of Randal´s synth theory/philosophy posts and that is seemingly a complete lack of understanding of a musical approach to patching/voicing/playing and performance related issues. I dunno, would´t you say this is a bit like if Ernest Hemingway suddenly goes in a feminist phase and tries to be Gloria Steinem? And yes.. I know Hemingway shot himself.
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One thing you will see me doing a lot more, and thank you Tom for prodding me into the idea, is to provide musical and educational MP3s as replies to particular DIY/music/appropriate threads. A picture tells a thousand words. Ian's thread needed examples and I got more than one PM (ok, two) from people who had questions they were embarrased to ask. It's cool. This is what we're here for. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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EdisonRex
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:49 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | | Paul, isn´t he kinda referring to the EMU modulars.. way before the samplers. |
yeah, but I don't get his point. DIY-ers don't have much in common with EMU's early days. He does. The only point I get is him projecting again.
It'd be all well and good, if I could in good conscience call him on it. I've seen how that turns out. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: | | So, to summarise, I think the "normal" vs. "strange", or East coast/ West coast division is blurred very nicely by adding IO/patchpoints and atten/mixing of those points. Bob Moog himself said in later years that the largest mistake he made with the modulars was not to have enough attenuators on inputs. (Many early moog users will remember the little-pots-on-plugs used to correct that fault!) |
Hmm, listen guys.. sometimes it is smart to step back and be realistic about what we are really talking about here.
Think about who actually bought full analog modular systems from say 69 - to 1978. Who do you come up with? OK.. and then we have a list of recordings as well.. and did the East coast/ West coast division reflect itself in the music? No it didn´t. Actually, it is also completely senseless not to consider the influence of the Roland modulars and the early hand crafted PPG stuff here. And the EMS gear as well. Hmm.. and this is just the start. If we again take a hard look at ideology here, apart from Buchla, most modular vendors were pretty general in their approach but still rather inventive. I dunno, personally I think it is possible to argue that modular synthesis really happened around 1976-77 and then concepts were rather fast being translated into oddball products like the PPG Wave series and the DX-7, D-50 and more, resulting in the revolution in instrument design we saw in the 80s. And the biggies in the Yamaha CS series! These are not modulars but clearly designs made by people who really had been doing their homework.
Modular synthesis got reinvented again by clever sickos in the mid 90s and we got the MOTM and all the trad analog systems as well as the Clavia NMs and completely software based instruments. So, my line of reasoning is that now is the time to discuss ideology, but from an historical viewpoint raising an east coast/west coast distinction is completely irrelevant. Emu? My god! Well.. ok.. isn´t that a bird? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: | | elektro80 wrote: | | Paul, isn´t he kinda referring to the EMU modulars.. way before the samplers. |
yeah, but I don't get his point. DIY-ers don't have much in common with EMU's early days. He does. The only point I get is him projecting again.
It'd be all well and good, if I could in good conscience call him on it. I've seen how that turns out. |
Oh yes, he is projecting. And he doesn´t really get to his real point because he lost it. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:34 pm Post subject:
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This is Randal, so we will be seeing a trillion of those posts until he rediscovers sex and goes CNC on some fancy rubber.  _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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v-un-v
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject:
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I dunno. I get the feeling Randaleem is androgynous!!  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject:
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Tom, one suggestion coming up: Don´t get in too deep with the Randalnoize interrogation. There will be nothing good coming out of that one. Keep in mind that he uses every post here to build himself up into a visionary cult hero.  _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:45 pm Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | I dunno. I get the feeling Randaleem is androgynous!!  |
Isn´t fungus androgynous?
. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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v-un-v
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject:
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It is!!
Don't worry about me, Ryk has gone for the jugular  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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elektro80
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Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:01 pm Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: | DIY-ers don't have much in common with EMU's early days. He does. The only point I get is him projecting again.
It'd be all well and good, if I could in good conscience call him on it. I've seen how that turns out. |
Yes, the DIY thing is way different and there is no point in making up some huge bullshit theoretical framework. It doesn´t make sense to build this Moog/Buchla/Emu thing when it easily can be documented that DIY designs have been crossing absolutely any border/distinction you can think of. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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EdisonRex
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:08 pm Post subject:
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well, I'm calling his bluff. I haven't escalated "nonsense" to "bullshit" and in deference to good attitudes I don't want to. But I am thinking about it.
But really, he isn't getting the point about design, and rattles on about things. Time to call some bluffs. The truth usually works. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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elektro80
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject:
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Take care. This must not backfire.  _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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v-un-v
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject:
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Good interjection Paul. Randal just needs to use his imagination a bit.
Right, I've got a mound of work that I need to work through by Sunday. I'll try and pop back in the meantime (highly probable- but this wave now includes more Solidworks, which is a bit like the Nord G2- ie you sit down to it when the sun is going, and the next thing you know, the sun is going down again!! )
Keep on calling those bluffs gents- it's what the forum is missing right now  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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v-un-v
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | Take care. This must not backfire.  |
indeed- but I think we have the sensitivity to do this with style  _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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EdisonRex
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject:
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| elektro80 wrote: | Take care. This must not backfire.  |
I'm being very careful. He's using a very tenuous concept, and one which is discredited in my field, actually. And he did something silly, which is to equate a cabin environmental control panel with a synthesizer. I only pointed that out so far. He's not responded, so he's either sulking, or he's off madly googling (which I discredited with my reference to my books...)... which he COULD be off referencing real books, but I have my doubts about that.
But I had to use a strong word - "nonsense" to get some attention. This will make people read both sides. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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elektro80
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject:
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| v-un-v wrote: | Good interjection Paul. Randal just needs to use his imagination a bit.
Right, I've got a mound of work that I need to work through by Sunday. I'll try and pop back in the meantime (highly probable- but this wave now includes more Solidworks, which is a bit like the Nord G2- ie you sit down to it when the sun is going, and the next thing you know, the sun is going down again!! )
Keep on calling those bluffs gents- it's what the forum is missing right now  |
And now Randal is already hard at work googling and writing and googling and writing and googling and writing and..  _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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EdisonRex
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:30 pm Post subject:
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Oh, and I haven't asked him about how well an airplane would work with patch cords hanging all over the place.
or a nuke plant.
We'll chug through this one. I think my point is, making MUSIC (which he does not do) is more important than obscessing on where to put a pot or jack. We'll make that point in due time. If I am asleep, please, one of you make that point.  _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated.
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elektro80
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: |
I'm being very careful. He's using a very tenuous concept, and one which is discredited in my field, actually. And he did something silly, which is to equate a cabin environmental control panel with a synthesizer. I only pointed that out so far. |
Oh yes, I noticed his blunder. His further argumentation for the cockpit experience was a confused spin of your post as well as .. I dunno.. fungus?
I think one point to make re Randal is that people aren´t used to actually reading a text and to understand it at the same time and this he is very aware of. He also covers some of the angles with his caressing considerations. His texts are tricky little monsters that could have kept several academic fields busy for decades. _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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elektro80
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Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject:
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| EdisonRex wrote: | Oh, and I haven't asked him about how well an airplane would work with patch cords hanging all over the place.
or a nuke plant.
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Is his point still that a cramped and disgusting interface will create cramped and disgusting sounds?
Well, it is obvious that a instrument does have an interface and that the interface does have a lot to do with how you play it. We all know that. Still, when you listen to a certain Toccata are you hearing excessive use of air or do you hear music?
His weird and indirect attacks on the owners and users of say Doepfer systems.. who would only be able in their feeble little minds to produce teeny weeny slushy uninspired sound.. aren´t these utterings in fact a bit offensive? Too bad the DIY forum doesn´t have a high number of militant Doepfer users. Uh.. make that militant lesbian Doepfer users! Where are they when we need then? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
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